Talk:David Ben-Gurion

Reference Section Missing Many Pieces

Hi. Shouldn't there be a Bibliography Section to compliment the References Section (which is here really more of a Notes section) since many of the References are not fully documented other than maybe with an author or an article title? In particular, the books used as references such as with Benny Morris should be listed separately in a Bibliography section. As you will notice if you check the details of the references, books such as that by Benny Morris per 2008 are unknown and undisclosed as a textual reference other than the page numbers for an unknown text. If there were a Bibliography Section, we would be able to keep better track of what it is complete and what is not. It should be a standard procedure anyway for any major article or major historical figure (such as this)... Any thoughts on this? Stevenmitchell (talk) 06:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

One major and two minor grammatical corrections needed

In paragraph 4 of section "Attitude Towards the British":

"amongst Arabs residents" should read "amongst Arab residents"...

In paragraph 6 of section "The Founding of Israel":

"the bellicosity of statements Arab prompted Israel" should probably read "the bellicosity of Arab statements prompted Israel"...

In paragraph "Marriage and family": "Already pregnant with their first child, Amos married..." ...bet Amos being a man was not pregnant. It should be "Amos married, already pregnant with their first child..." or "married Such-and-Such who was already pregnant... and was a gentile and the-rest-of-the-sentence". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.205.220.201 (talk) 16:21, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

RenaissongsMan 02:56, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Nomination for merging of Template:"Infobox member of the Knesset"

Template:Infobox member of the Knesset has been nominated for merging with Template:Infobox officeholder. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 16:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Teveth verses Segev

Some discrepancies have turned up between the two major biographies: The Burning Group/Teveth and A State at Any Cost/Segev.

- Age of Rachel Nelkin: Teveth has her 13 when they met (p. 20). Segev has her 18 when they arrived in Jaffa (p. 50). I have deleted that line until I can find clarification.

- Passport: Teveth specifically says he travelled on his own passport, while emphasising that he needed a forged birth certificate to avoid the draft (p. 36). Segev describes him getting a passport under someone else's name (p. 55). So I have also dropped that. Anyway bribes and forgeries seem to have been the norm in both Empires.

- Colonies: Teveth writes about 13 agricultural settlements in 1906 - he may be only referring to ones that employed Arabs. Segev has 25 moshavot (home to 6,000) but may be referring to pre-1914. I have left the Teveth version in because it may just be an issue of definition. Padres Hana (talk) 10:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Nationality

Nationality in the infobox should be replaced with citizenship. Page is blocked for edit, so please do it :) Artem.G (talk) 15:49, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 July 2021

Add Category:Ministers of Transport of Israel. Quacelinz3 (talk) 20:06, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I see on Hebrew wikipedia that Ben Gurion was in this position between August and December 1952, but is there a good English source supporting this? “WarKosign” 11:00, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Here is a good source. Apparently BG replaced David-Zvi Pinkas after he died while in office. “WarKosign” 11:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done Bwmdjeff (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Add

He was the first prime minister of Israel and declared it a state. 2603:7000:AD40:298C:E5E6:137F:B13D:5A69 (talk) 01:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Ben Gurion and the bible

In the paragraph on his religious belief it is worth noting that apart from his quotations from the Bible Ben Gurion also established a Bible study group at his home, in which the best biblical scholars in Israel participated. דבירותם (talk) 11:52, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Can you link to a reliable source please? “WarKosign” 12:58, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

there is an aritcle about it in the hebrew wikipedia, with some links דבירותם (talk) 13:09, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

The article says that BG established a bible study group at his residence in which participated a lot of ditnitaries, later the group moved to president Zalman Shazar's residence, and then at several other PMs and presidents re-openned such groups. In Hebrew wikipedia the study group is a subject of a separate article that is only linked with a single sentence from BG's article, so I think we can take this approach as well. One trouble is that most the sources are scans of old Hebrew newspapers, so they are not easily accessible for non-Hebrew speakers. “WarKosign” 18:49, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

The book "A State at Any Cost; the Life of David Ben-Gurion" by Tom Segev has enough about the Bible-study group for this article. It does not have the notability for an article of its own. Ben-Gurion was not an atheist but the Bible-study group doesn't prove he was super-religious. His interest in the Bible was more from a cultural-historical angle. Zero^talk 00:51, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:David Ben-Gurion (D597-087).jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for October 16, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-10-16. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! --Ahecht (TALK
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David Ben-Gurion (16 October 1886 – 1 December 1973) was the primary national founder of the State of Israel and the first prime minister of the country. Born David Grün, he adopted the surname Ben-Gurion in 1909, and later rose to become the preeminent leader of the Jewish community in British-ruled Mandatory Palestine from 1935 until the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, which he led until 1963 with a short break between 1954 and 1955. This photograph of Ben-Gurion was taken in 1960 and is part of Israel's National Photo Collection.

Photograph credit: Fritz Cohen

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Birth place

Please add that he was born in Płońsk (Poland). 89.68.121.20 (talk) 14:39, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

KASSIBER. FORWARD TO TRUSTABLE JEWISH INTERNATIONAL SERVICES.

COLPORTED "Kay bestrahlt (RADIATES) jetzt deinen Papa" (KILL "Kay Oliver Baumbach b. 1.5.1971 at Gera, sentenced criminal" AS RADICAL ANTIHUMAN MILITARY TERRORIST. MY FATHER MISTER PROFESSOR DOKTOR SC PHIL MANFRED NEUHAUS B 1946, (LEIPZIGER SECHS, UNIVERSITÄT LEIPZIG, BERLIN-BRANDENBURGISCHE AKADEMIE DER WISSENSCHAFTEN, EWIGES MITGLIED DER BERLINER LEIBNIZ SOZIETAET ALS HISTORIKER). ICH VERLANGE DIE TÖTUNG DES KORSAKOFF-LSD25-NAZI-CRETINS OHNE ABITUR „K.O.Baumbach“, BEREITS HUNDERTFACH STRAFANGEZEIGT. KILL THIS PERSON BY MOSSAD! 2003:E4:BF46:CF73:1DA5:F985:6ACD:BE68 (talk) 15:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

"Pokantny Doradca"

This was probably supposed to be pokątny doradca. I'm afraid this has never been an official term, so there's no need for capitalisation. 195.187.108.130 (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

He was pokątnym doradcą, correct. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Expulsion policy

Gigantic article without a single mention of Ben-Gurion's transfer policy and how he is viewed by Palestinians, instead an entire subsection on belief in equal rights with Arabs; fascinating! Makeandtoss (talk) 14:41, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus#Planning by Ben-Gurion is ready and waiting to backfill the omissions. The wider page has 50 Ben-Gurion mentions. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I added a minor addition, but more work needs to be done, and this aspect is certainly lede worthy-after having expanding it enough to meet its significance. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:33, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Birth date

Ben-Gurion's birth date is listed as October 16, 1886 everywhere, including here, but it would seem his birth record [1] gives it as February 18, 1887. Jacław (talk) 13:49, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

How do you know it is him? Does it give his father as Avigdor Gruen and his mother as Sheindel (née Friedman)? Zero^talk 15:26, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

This article is relevant. It refers to a certificate which may be this one. "As far as is known, Ben-Gurion was born on October 16, 1886, but the document is dated February 1887. 'Nevertheless, date discrepancies are common with such documents,' she said." Zero^talk 15:32, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not a native Russian speaker, and this kind of handwriting is always tricky to read, but the father's name is given as Викторъ Гринъ (Viktor Grin) and the mother's name (in the genitive case) as Шайндли урожденной Бройтманъ (Shayndli née Broytman). The baby's names are Давидъ-Jосефъ (David-Yosef). So I think it's just the mother's maiden name that doesn't match. BTW, I didn't see a matching record under 1886, which is why I looked at 1887. Now, the thing with a twin is interesting, because the previous entry indeed is for a baby born on the same day from the same parents, except that... it's a girl, Рыфка (Ryfka). So the authors of the discovery highlighted by the article didn't quite do their homework. I actually also found this biography, which mentions the 1887 birth certificate (and gives the mother's maiden name consistently with it), saying 'Note that it was very common in that time for parents registering the birth of their children a little after birth.' But I wonder where the 1886 date comes from then, and why the 1887 date is being brushed off like that, when this is the one for which a document exists. Jacław (talk) 23:32, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

There are plenty of documents with a birth date for BG, some of which he provided himself (like immigration certificates). I used to know more about this but my memory is too dim. I believe that the 1886 date is near-universally accepted because that is the date he gave for himself. Confusion like this was common. For example Chaim Weizmann consistently gave 27 Nov 1874 after 1906, but his school leaving certificate gives 12 Nov 1873. Menachem Begin is usually considered as born on 16 Aug 1913 but his Polish passport said 13 July 1913. Zero^talk 04:51, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Grammatical Error

In the first section, "On 14 May 1948, he formally proclaimed the establishment of Israel, and was the first to sign the Israeli Declaration of Independence, which he had helped writing." Should actually be "On 14 May 1948, he formally proclaimed the establishment of Israel, and was the first to sign the Israeli Declaration of Independence, which he had helped WRITE" (correction in all caps) SrUncleMel (talk) 20:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Changed to "helped to write", thanks. Zero^talk 00:48, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Addition of "David Ben Gurion" Park in Pachuca, Hidalgo (Mexico) to "conmemoration" section

This could be a great addition to the conmemoration section. Information about this Park can be found here:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parque_David_Ben_Guri%C3%B3n

Spanish is my native language, and I could help with translation to English if necessary. PoochMx1 (talk) 17:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Misdated and mis-sourced quote

The quote "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?" is dated in the Wiki entry to 1953 but was actually said by BG in 1956. See Goldmann's book (where he brings the original quote): [2]https://archive.org/details/jewishparadox0000gold/page/98/mode/2up?q=leader.

On that note, 4 different sources are used to verify that Goldmann did, indeed, quote BG saying that, but none are Goldmann's original book. This seems arbitrary. I suggest removing those sources and citing only Goldmann's book. פלטיהו (talk) 05:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Birth Name

David Yosef Gruen

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/david-ben-gurion BeingObjective (talk) 18:50, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 December 2023

Chapter „Views and opinions“, section „Attitude towards Arabs“

Please change : Goldmann reported that Ben Gurion had told him in private in 1953:[75][76][77][78]

to

Goldmann reported that Ben Gurion had told him in private in 1956:

as suggested on the talk page in section „Misdated and mis-sourced quote“ Farafince (talk) 17:21, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done Liu1126 (talk) 20:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

References

Further Reading

Ury, Scott. "The Generation of 1905 and the Politics of Despair: Alienation, Friendship, Community." In, The Revolution of 1905 and Russia's Jews, eds. Stefani Hoffman and Ezra Mendelsohn (University of Pennsylvania, 2008), pp. 96-110. ISBN 978-0-8122-4064-1. 2001:BF8:200:394:6889:763D:F5FC:1FA2 (talk) 12:46, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 March 2024

If it's not too contentious, could the first sentence be revised? Right now it says he

was the primary national founder of the State of Israel as well as the state's first prime minister.

This could be shortened to

was the primary national founder of the State of Israel and its first prime minister.

Thank you. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 02:48, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Zero^talk 12:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

add pov tag

Please add a {{POV}} tag to the article. Fanccr (talk) 01:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done - I see no discussion on neutrality on this talk page and there's no obvious issues I can see (it's a long article, I haven't read the whole thing). This edit request would need some justification before being implemented. Note: also slightly changed Fanccr's request to link the POV template instead of transcluding it; maintenance templates shouldn't be on talk pages. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 02:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Other than topics literally titled "violation of NPOV" presumably? Though some of the specific concerns of that may have been addressed since then. I don't know how much I can argue the point with the restrictions that are in place. Maybe a tedious process of making edit requests to add the template to countless sections of the article before adding it to the entire article, the overview, for instance, seemingly portraying him as some kind of savior of mankind/hero character referencing as one might expect from an israeli history textbook, using historical revisionism to ahistorically reframe groups like the stern gang/lehi and irgun as "militias", and misleading euphemistic terms like "expulsion and flight".Fanccr (talk) 08:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Melmann 19:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)