Talk:Abstract Zionism
Anome makes a good point, the page does fail the Google test, primarily because it reflects an issue which, although it is commonly articulated, does not have a 'name'.
In order to avoid putting the entirety of the issues which are not exclusive to the Israel/Palestine issue into the main Zionism article (and because they relate to the definition of the term zionism they would perforce belong near the top of the article) I felt a separate article, despite having to synthesize (albeit hopefully not too abstrusely) a name for it, was a better solution than the available alternatives.
I have removed this article, as searching for its topic yields no relevant Google hits. (There are three near-misses that are accidental word combinations). The Anome 12:50 May 11, 2003 (UTC)
Someone has restored this, acknowledging that it failed the Google test. Is this really encyclopedic, and what is it about? This appears to be about "Zionism as metaphor": but I can't make much more sense of it than that. The Anome 17:35 May 11, 2003 (UTC)
- I don't see any sense to this page either. It certainly is not about anything 'abstract" or "metaphorical" -- it seems to be a list of some minority (but no less legitimate) versions of Zionism, especially from pre-1948. I do not see any point to this "article." Slrubenstein
Here is the former "article" plus why I removed it to talk:
Warning: the issue of abstract zionism ('zionism as metaphor') is not in use as a term in itself (so it will 'fail the google test' until people link to this article) but is provided here as a separate article in order to prevent the main zionism entry becoming unnecessarily cluttered by a (nonetheless important) 'side issue', although this issue is mentioned and linked in the main article.
- The above is unclear and vague. Zionism is an "abstract" term, as is true for almost all nouns.
Sometimes "Zionism" is used in a different but related sense to the term which concerns Judaism, Israel and Palestine.
- different in what way? unclear and vague
Zionism as a word contains significant ambiguity in its derivation.
- virtually all words that describe political movements are polysemic.
In the Bible, the word Zion has various references: the Old Testament book of Samuel (II Samuel 5.6-7)refers to it as a stonghold on the South Eastern hill of the city of Jerusalem, whereas elsewghere in the Old Testament and throughout the New Testament Jerusalem is treated as being 'heaven'.
- the above is irrelevant material, there can be one article on Mt. Zion, one on Zionism -- one is a place, the other a political movement.
Zionism as a metaphor
- it isn't a metaphor
is occasionally used to encapsulation of such sentiments as 'a right to a recognised homeland', 'a right to have a place to return to'.
- this is indeed part of what Zionism means and should be in the Zionism article.
This latter sense best epitomises a sentiment in African Americans, in terms of 'going back to Africa' when the individual expressing this has ever been there themselves and they are not necessarily able to directly identify any ancestor known to them who has been there.
- An article on African-American separatism or nationalism can discuss "Zion" used as a metaphor -- but put it in its context, in its proper place. I do not know of any African-Americans who have used Zionism as a metaphor, but if any have -- again, put that in its apporpriate article.
Zionism therefore, in this case, distinguishes the sentimaent in question from that of nostalgia.
- Again, Zionists themselves claim they are not merely nostalgiac, that is part of the explicit meaning of Zionism and belongs in the Zionism article.
Zionism, in the abstract sense concerns an attitude to a particular location where the attitude in question:
- Zionism in its explicit sense as the name of a political movement and program concerns an attitude to a place, this belongs in the Zionism article
- does not necessarily constitute nationalism
- Give examples of a non-nationalistic Zionism. Buber might be a good example, but he was a bona fide Zionist and discussion of this stream of Zionist thought belongs in the Zionist article.
- Give an example of a Zionism that has nothing to do with Judaism or Israel/Palestine
- does not necessarily involve relocation of a community
- Many Zionists do not relocate to Israel -- again, this can be in the Zionism article.
- does necessarily involve support for a geographical location by individuals who don't necessarily live there
- Please give examples
See for example Utah for the Mormons and Ethiopia for the Rastafari.
- These are not examples of Zionism -- they are religious movements that do rever to Zion metaphorically, which is different and again, would belong in the appropriate articles.
An abstract sense of zionism is a sentiment of support or loyalty for a particular place (potentially, but not necessarily, where such a place is considered to be a homeland) where such a sentiment is felt or expressed by members of an expatriate or 'diaspora' community.
- Again, this is true of Zionism and belongs in the article on Zionism.
The extent to which this abstract or general sense of zionism does or does not constitute nationalism depends upon whether it relates to support for aspects of the place in question where such support for the place (or the nature of the place itself) fully embraces the concept or reality of 'nation' or 'state'.
- Maybe, there is complex scholarly and political discussion of this, which can be in the Zionism article.
Counter Example
Support for one's 'home team' in an international sports contest would be an example of stretching the use of the word zionism beyond reasonable (or typical) use.
- WHY is this even in an article? Calling my love of Pizza a form of Zionism would also be an unreasonable way to use a word. think about it -- the number of wrong ways to use a word will always exceed the number of correct ways.
Nationalism is a feature of zionism which stresses the fact that the place supported constitutes a nation state but zionism often also characterises the attitudes of those separatists in favour of forming a new or revived nation state. The exception here is that of those campaigning for a separate state of Palestine, who are never referred to as zionists.
- That is because they are not Jewish. Most (not all) Zionists call for a Jewish national homeland in the form of a state in Palestine. That does not by any means require that it be the only state in Palestine (Jordan is a non-Palestinian and non-Jewish state in Palestine).
Externality
A feature of zionism is its relationship with the geographic notion of 'place' and dispersion, such that those 'outside' of a place who 'support' it could be termed zionists, whereas those within it would not, but instead would be termed 'nationalists' (if the place in question was a nation state, or was proposed to becme a nation state). However, there are exceptions; for instance in Israel, nationalists are also sometimes referred to as zionists despite dwelling in the country to which they have a 'zionist attitude'.
- Israeli nationalists are generally considered Zionists, although there is some discussion of "post-Zionism" which again belongs in the Zionism article.
Zionist attitude
A zionist attitude is often associated not only with 'support' but also with a support for 'return', where such a return reflects a desire to return to a place from which oneself or one's 'people' were exiled or left through choice (which itself may also have been under political or economic pressure).
- Again, this is an acknowledged component of Zionism
The exile may only be notional or ir it may be real and the desire for return may be purely gestural (a vacation in the 'homeland' may be sufficent, embodying a notion of 'pilgrimage').
- Unclear -- most people today use "exile" in a metaphorical or spiritual sense, its literal sense is seldom the main sense.
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