Talk:Psychopomp

Merger

Suggest merger with Death (Personification), since that page essentially contains the same and more detailed information. List might be more useful as part of wikiList feature. Psychopomp can be included as a subcategory in Death (Personification), in my opinion.67.161.66.2 (talk) 04:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that's a bad idea. It would be like merging Angel with God. Separate concepts. Brodo (talk) 13:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

"African"

Is pretty big for a single entry in the "by mythology or belief system" section. Maybe add "Yoruba" for Yoruba-specific deities? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.7.68 (talk) 05:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Something to remember

Psychopomp = escorter. Not death god, not death judge, just death escort. 24.126.199.129 01:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

... which would seem to be clear from reading the article, no?

Artemis and original research

Given the definition of psychopomp that appears at the top of this article, I am puzzled that the Greek section lists Artemis rather than Charon. Is this a case of the latter doing the real work while a divine middle manager takes the credit? -- Alan Peakall 18:24 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)

Charon doesn't actually escort anybody to the Afterlife, he just takes them across the river into Hades proper. With that said, it's certainly debatable if he counts as a psychopomp or not, though I'd be inclined to say no unless I see an authoritative source define him as such, but I wouldn't remove it if you added him. Artemis is more confusing -- I'm the one that made the list and added her -- and, honestly, I don't know why she is considered one, but I created the list by doing a search for "psychopomp" on google and adding whoever came up, described as one. If I remember correctly, Artemis is believed to have been worshipped extensively in really ancient Greece and her function was slightly different, so I'm guessing she was originally a psychopomp, though Hermes fulfilled that role during the classical period of Greek mythology. I could certainly be wrong about all this, but I think that's why the list is as it is. Tokerboy 20:19 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)

lol. You know that's a clear cut case of ORIGINAL RESEARCH, right? Charon ferried the dead across, but the main psychopomp of Greek mythology was Hermes. I think "Artemis" was just bad data. 24.126.199.129 00:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

psychopomps

Reckon someone should make a page for 'pyschopomps' that redirects to the psychopomp page. Or maybe I should actually bother to learn how to really edit this site and just do it myself... but I haven't touched html in years and I have some papers to finish. cheers.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.233.68.47 (talk)

Japanese shinigami

Does shinigami belong to this list? It's simply Japan's name for the imported Grim Reaper; it's more of a pop culture figure than a mythological one. O not 01:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

That's actually a common misconception, "shinigami" is formed from the kanji "shin" and "kami", so it means "Death God", and there's more than one god with that title. Jizo from buddhist mythology is probably the closest to a psychopomp they have, though I don't know if he's consider a shinigami or not. I imagine the reason people make this mistake stems from either Izanami's destroying a thousand living people a day or King Yama's judging of souls. Or maybe it just came from modern media... Certain oni such as Ox-Head and Horse Face and Mara are also considered to be shinigami. 2605:E000:1318:FD:35D9:E53C:A7BE:D223 (talk) 00:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Wade

I'm unsure why Wade (or Waetle) is listed as an English Psychopomp. I've not seen anything that even likens him to Charon, although he is associated with fords and rivers. His page on Wikipedia doesn't mention anything. The English equivalent of Valkries are Wælcyrge according to Ellis Davidson, H. R. "Gods and Myths of Northern Europe". They are most definately Psychopomps, their name meaning "choosers of the slain". Having also read the Norse section, why are Odin (certainly NOT just a death escorter) and Baldr (dead, living in Hel, and unable to return) listed? --Swahilli (talk) 22:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

All mythology

If we're going to use the term mythology, even to describe modern religions, should we not also use something like "Jewish Mythology" instead of "Judaism"? It seems to me like it'd match the rest of the article better, and is not particularly offensive or inaccurate - JustinWick (talk) 09:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Being a mythologist that's fine with me, but do know that some religious observers are not very comfortable with associating their religious "beliefs" with the term "mythology."

USA12345 keeps removing the Jewish and Christian sections claiming they aren't mythology or that by putting them in here violates WP:NPOV. I don't think there is a POV issue as evidenced by my reverts of his edits. I was hoping we could get a consensus on this. Personally I think that since it states in the first sentence that Psychopomps are part of religious beliefs that there is a NPOV. sdgjake (talk) 20:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, think there is a POV issue since the article itself states that it is about the mythology of the psychopomp. Even though the article does refer in passing to belief systems, its content is 99% mythology and gives the impression that anything included in the page is mythological. Moreover, it belies a distinct POV to argue that an angel in Judaism or Christianity is in the same category ("psychopomp") as Charon or any other mythological being, since the category itself has a profoundly mythological/fictional connotation. -- USA12345 —Preceding unsigned comment added by USA12345 (talk • contribs) 20:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, why are we being selective about which modern religions to include (e.g., Hinduism and Islam) and which to exclude (Christianity and Judaism)? Consistency is important, and I agree with Sdgjake's assessment that the intro properly scopes it as religious beliefs being part of it. —C.Fred (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Further, the article stated it was about the religious term. I have recast the otheruses heading and, pursuant to the section saying mythologies or belief systems, changed the obvious extant religions (i.e., Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism) to delete mythology from their section headers. Hopefully this shows the broadness of the article. —C.Fred (talk) 21:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm on board with Fred's revision, I think it's a good one; my only remaining reservation is with the inclusion of Jesus in the Christianity category since the article states that the psychopomp does NOT judge, whereas in Christianity, Jesus judges the dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by USA12345 (talk • contribs) 16:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Good point! The definition of psychopomp does exclude Jesus. —C.Fred (talk) 17:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem we have is a language problem. Myth accurately describes what we are talking about here, regardless of religion. It is the proper term. Unfortunately people who are unschooled in these things get stuck on the idea of myth meaning falsehood, exacerbated by the prejudice that allows them to believe that everyone else's religion is a myth (falsehood) but theirs is "true" and should not be so described, or that all religion is falsehood "myth." But that's not a hangup we need to get caught up in. Calling something Myth is a technical term, not a declaration of falsehood, and is accurate here. Rifter0x0000 (talk) 01:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

contested statement removed

• [Inclusion of] Yama {{Fact|date=December 2006}}

Please do not return this information to the article without a citation.--BirgitteSB 15:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Mithras

This article lists Mithra as a psychopomp, but Mithra says "Unlike Sraosha, Mithra is not however a psychopomp." Attys (talk) 13:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Xolotl

This article lists Xolotl as a psychopomp, but Xolotl says: "Although often depicted in relation to the underworld, Xolotl was not a psychopomp in the Western sense." Attys (talk) 13:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Toth, Horus, Namtar

I am in no way an expert on Psychopomps, but considering the definition at the start of the article some names seem missplaced. Toth was said to judge the dead, not guide them to the afterlife, which according to the definition given means he is not a Psychopomp. Horus also seems to have little cause to be called a Psychopomp, the same with Namtar who is closly connected to death but as far as I know not of guiding the dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.96.132.12 (talk) 20:11, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Image caption (Myrrhine)

Hello, I'm just wondering if the Myrrhine referred to in the image caption refers to a single individual? And is it the same as this Myrrhine? Thank you! --TyrS (talk) 06:16, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Removed "In Fiction" section

The "In Fiction" section contained 10 to 20 paragraphs where people stuffed in personal opinions about their favorite TV shows, books, etc., all without any citations (actually, there was 1 almost irrelevant cite at the very end.)

I improved the article by just nuking the entire section. It was tangential to the topic at best. Nandesuka (talk) 13:33, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

More recent pop culture reference

Davey Jones, from The Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, is a psychopomp who is cursed as a result of his decision to abandon his role. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.186.51 (talk) 19:43, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Valkyries

What about Valkyries from Old Norse (and Early Germanic) paganism? Surely, they're an excellent example? Amphioxys (talk) 11:07, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Shinigami and Grim Reaper

I think that correlating shinigami to the grim reaper is misguided and unsubstantiated. Japanese psychopomps and deities related to death have a long and well documented history that is entirely unrelated to the concept of the grim reaper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.82.134.64 (talk) 20:57, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Section Naming

Examples from Hinduism and Zoroastrianism should be included in ancient religion because of their antiquity. It is possible that the authors of this article may have confused ancient and modern religions with nonextant and extant religions. If so, the sections should be renamed.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• NAMA Hermès & Myrrhinè.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:52, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Modified caption of Myrrhine image

File:NAMA Hermès & Myrrhinè.jpg

I added that she's a priestess of Athena given that mentioning her name without any introduction seems out of context for the reader. She doesn't have an article too.

I'm mentioning this here because I don't have proper source on this and confirmed this fact by a brief Google search. The file's image description also doesn't shed more light on this. Ugog-public (talk) 16:12, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

St Peter the psychopomp

I'm unaware of any real Christian denomination in which St. Peter judges men and allows them into heaven, but the citation used in this article doesn't have any merit to it. The citation is a blog post that compares Peter's role to that of Hermes or Anubis and claims that "St. Peter is just the Christian version of an almost universal spiritual/mythic tradition, the psychopomp." However, in Christianity, Peter was not an adaptation from another religion but rather an actual person. Different denominations might say different things about him or the souls of the saints, but afaik nobody actually believes he's the one who judges souls (rather than Jesus). Our article on Saint Peter claims this image is simply "popular with modern cartoonists." The citation used for the claim on this page, however, is misinformed. The claim should be removed from this page. VoidZapper (talk) 19:15, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Querulant edits all marked "Fixed typo, added content"

"Fixed typo, added content" this article has been heavily vandalised by a single user posting via ip or a now blocked account I will try to restore a stable version but its difficult, this activity has not been properly countered Bari' bin Farangi (talk) 03:45, 29 January 2023 (UTC)