Talk:Dassault nEUROn

Skepticism

Hmmm, a lot of the stuff in this article seems to be speculation. What are the sources for the information? Impi 21:07, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Speculation? what you mean exactly? I Can't understand you... The sources are:

• the Official EADS site and an official communication of EADS this summer
• the Official site of Dassault Aviation and SAAB
• the n°308 of Air Fan Magazine (July 2004)
• the Eurosatory 2004 salon where French Defence minister announced officialy the budget for R&D of Neuron

thank you for your interest and bye User:Surcouf 9:07 CET 31/08/2004

Hmmm, I know it exists, and I know who the partners are. That bit's easy to find online. What I'm unsure about is the claim that it will do Mach 5, and the claim that this will actually go into service. Just about all the Dassault and EADS statement I have seen so far says the Neuron is a Technology Demonstrator, in other words something to be used to develop the technologies required to actually make a UCAV that will enter service. Impi 18:04, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In fact, on the original article I wrote that Mach5+ speed is ONLY expected.
Expected but needed, because of the very high unit cost of the aircraft (135M of €!!!) planned for the prototype, and for the very complex aerodynamic design.
Up to Mach3 there is no need of unmanned control (and the human life in war is not so precious to spend 100M€ to save it... )
Anyhow, honestly, I will not be surprised if the initial operating speed of the prototype will be under Mach3... SNECMA actually has not technology&resources to do that: the development of M88-(3,4,5 and maybe 6) engine for the rafales, summed with all the resources employed for the engine study of the new Airbus A380 and Boeing 7E7 (and still not commissioned!) is tooooooooo much for the french engine company...
PS: On the original article on Air Fan there's wrote that Dassault engineers are thinking about ability of Neurons to make groups with mixed manned/unmanned aircrafts... This is too much to believe, for now, so I'll not write about it, am I right?
PPS: the 2012 service entering of the Neurons or their "permanent exposition" in the "Le Bourget" museum (like the Mirage4000) will be probably decided by the economic situation of france at that epoch...
Surcouf 10:59 CET 1/09/2004

Well, to be honest I don't think this thing will go supersonic at all. The current trend for UCAVs is to make them as stealthy as possible, and the second you go supersonic you lose some of that stealthy element. That's why neither the B-2 nor the F-117 are capable of supersonic flight, and I'm pretty sure the new US UCAVs can't go supersonic either. Just doesn't make practical sense. Of course, even at subsonic speeds there is a need for a UCAV to attack the more dangerous targets, such as airfields and areas with saturated air defences, and that is worth a 100m Euro price tag. As for the grouping, I've got no problem with that being in the article, because it's factual. It's similar to the "swarming" techniques being worked on by the US and Australia at the moment, and in fact it's one of the essential elements to have sorted out before the aircraft enters service. However, I think the 2012 in-service date is speculation. At the moment, the Dassault Neuron project is being treated as a technology demonstrator only, although it's certain that it will eventually lead to a UCAV that will enter service.

So, in short, I've got no problem with most of the article, but I think two things: the Mach 5 speed and the 2012 in-service date, are just speculation and should not be included in the article. Impi 10:58, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This system is French. French systems tend to rely on a less "completely stealth" design than the US ones, to avoid the risk of loosing their only assets in case the enemy simply changes frequencies (as happened in Yugoslavia, for instance) and are more maneuverable and swifter, like the Rafale, for instance. In this context, even if Mach 5 does sound futuristic, it is absolutely not unreasonable to thins that the system will be designed to have supersonic abilities. Rama 17:10, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

A French company started it perhaps, but: "Saab (Sweden): overall design; fuselage; avionics; fuel system; autonomy functions" makes it a Saab (Swedish) syetem... Lpwa 17:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ever heard about Dassault's Logiduc program? Seems like you didn't! This is a 3-step French project whose third phase only was joined by European subcontract partners to reduce its development cost. hence the name change from "AVE-? Grand Duc" to the more European sounding "nEUROn". The British didn't joined because they were involved with a rival dual programm with the US and the German didn't joined neither because they didn't have enough money to engage in a such project (though they later led a rival dual programme with EADS who failed). The nEUROn design was not done by Saab but by Dassault and is an evolution of the French-only Dassault AVE-D & AVE-C (Dassault Mirage 2000 escorting 2 "AVE-C Petit Duc" & 1 "AVE-D Moyen Duc") who were based on the US Northrope B-2 Spirit. French-only AVE-D flew in 2000 as the first UAV in Europe. I'll create the Logiduc and Dassault AVE-C/AVE-D articles. Here's an official report of the Logiduc programm published by the French Senate. Shame On You 14:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

well, you'd better have a look at the Dassault AVE-C Moyen Duc (2001) article.. yes the original nEUROn design demonstrated in its official promo video (late November 2005) was atually a full scale armed (there is a rumor the AVE-C had a bomb bay) version of the Dassault Moyen Duc which was itself a direct (2/1 scale) evolution of the Dassault AVE-D Petit Duc (2000). By the way Saab's stealth UAV FILUR (2005) looks like (i'm talking about the real stuff not the concept CG) a little bit to these two. by the way, anyone to create the Saab FILUR article official data? Shame On You 12:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

more than skepticism

The article is in general the nonsense! Just one example: "Until June 2005, the UCAV nEUROn design was a full scale evolution of the twin-engine AVE-C Moyen Duc (2001) tactical UAV whose appearance was inspired by the stealth bomber Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit." B-2 bomber is clean tailess flying wing, based on the Gaussian curves - the principle developed during the Northrop´s Tacit Blue program that is already 30 years old and obsolete. Compared to it nEUROn and also Dassault Grand Duc and its predcessors AVE-C Moyen Duc and AVE-D Petit Duc are completely different designs, based on the diamond and triangular platforms - a very few generic designs used on unmanned stealthy aerial vehicles worldwide. They are not even the flying wings, nor based on gaussian curves or related to B-2!! It is like to say that the cherry was inspired by the tomato, because in general they look the same. This is the similar silly statement, that can be made only by person without at least basic aeronautical and engineering knowledge.

Also I would really like to know, from where Wiki has the unit costs, while the production machines *were not even defined yet*!! The only quazi pre-production prototype was planned Dassault Grand Duc, but it was cancelled already in 2003. nEUROn is only a technology demonstrator, there will be not any serial version of it at all. UCAS for the operational service will be based on the TECHNOLOGIES, not the DEMONSTRATOR, developed during the nEUROn program and is expected to be defined sometime in 2015 - 2020 timeframe. For example Alenia Aeronautica is already planning to use some of the technologies and also some of the experience gained during Sky-X program in its own UCAS design Black Lynx, that is low aspect ratio wing subsonic plane with the two diesel engines and propellers.

And when I read this discussion about that someone was able to write, that this kind of platform with its shape and wings (and propulsion) will be expected to reach Mach 5+... That is the pure ignorance of the basic laws of physics!

Currently I wrote a large article about the subject (English translation is also available). If anybody wants to corrent this Wiki´s "aerospace fan page", you can also take a look at it at http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/UCAV05.htm It will be online from tomorrow (9. September 2009).

Ing. Matej Furda —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.99.148.39 (talk) 16:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

moving page to the real one, ADMIN needed plz!

i just want to move this article. the real and official spelling is Dassault nEUROn so this temporary "project" spelling ("Dassault Neuron") should be moved to the real one, but 'moving' is disabled as the real spelling article is already used as a redirect. so if anyone here with adminsuperpower could do the right stuff it would be cool. thanks. Shame On You 11:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll get it done. Akradecki 20:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Wait a second...before we go moving it...it this project is so international, it seems that calling it a "Dassault" is a bit inappropriate. How about just nEUROn? (See the usage here Akradecki 21:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

thanks to you i just lost an improtant edit due to an edit conflict provoked by your minor edit. i hate this fucking shit. Shame On You 22:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, sorry you lost the edit, but you might want to watch the language and the personal attacks. You also need to know that I have no way of knowing if you're editing or not, much less if you're working on a minor or major edit. Edit conflicts are tough...it happens to all of us. Something I learned a long time ago: highlight and control+C (shortcut for copying) before hitting the save button, that way you never loose anything. Akradecki 03:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

ok forget about the edit, the official name is really "Dassault nEUROn" as Dassault built it and is the chief master on this project (Dassault is also responsible for the overall architectures and design it will be obvious with the upcoming LOGIDUC article). nEUROn is the third vehicle and final phase of the Dassault programme LOGIDUC (the two first vehicles from which nEUROn is derived were developped by Dassault alone). Actually the European partners are only subcontractors, its just like a car, a PC or a video game console, there's the maker and there are a lot of subcontractors who did a special task. This is what happened here. Some Swedish people in forums and editors here tend to make the Dassault nEUROn a Saab project (i've corrected the Swedish wiki) due to the Swedish company's involvment but this only because they don't know about the LOGIDUC programme (most of them also believe Saab alone did stealth UCAVs but they were actually UAVs! this is what happen when personal websites are used as sources). I believe it could be publically presented by the Swedish government as a Swedish-led programme but this is propaganda. This is an European stealth UCAV built by Dassault, this is why the nEUROn full scale model was unveilled at the Dassault stand (by the way the nEUROn project was launched by Dassault in 2003 and Saab only joined it in late 2005 as the 3rd european subcontractors). FYI, Boeing is subcontracted by ~49% of European manufacturers (source: Loïc Tribot la Spière, délégué général du Centre d'étude et de prospective stratégique). If someone can proove the real name is "nEUROn" alone though just show some evidence from official websites. thanks. Shame On You 08:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the background, it makes sense now. I'll get it taken care of. Akradecki 15:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Done, thanks to NawlinWiki's help. Akradecki 15:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

thank you. Shame On You 15:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, sorry for seeing the above thread a bit late. Just a few points:

• You do not need an admin to move a page, you can do this yourselves (unless the target name already exists)
• A name like "nEUROn" is not possible, the first letter will be capitalised
• Admins can retrieve edits lost in renamings, if necessary. Rama 19:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

hi, yeah i know i tried to move it but (i did it before but it was not possible). i know about autocaps, i already created the ugly "NEUROn" redirect. Shame On You 19:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

officials contact mail for neuron

here's the contact mail if anyone is interested to get official infos and data about neuron to add in the article. i would mail them when i get time. Shame On You 19:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup tag

A good article, but in need of significant attention.

• The intro is very poor - don't get me wrong, it is well written. But an intro should provide an introduction -- at present it is far too detailed. Information should be pushed down into the main article.
• The "related releases" section is a pretty random collection of information. The good information from these articles should be added to the article and the external links changed to references for this. Mark83 11:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
• I count 2 fair use images, which is 2 too many when there is a free alternative available. At a stretch we could have another one showing it from a different angle, not two. Mark83 11:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

what do you mean by a good intro? can you rewrite it? the problem is official datas are hard to find online. you can contact dassault.

about the fair use i used the logo picture just in order to show the development link between the Grand Duc and nEUROn. if you can design a 3DCG of the nEUROn scale model do it. i used this one as a correction since the previous pic was an outdated prototype, namely the Grand Duc (check logiduc).

i have updated this article and i am responsible for the LOGIDUC, but i'm currently too busy to spend time on wiki. so good luck. Shame On You 20:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

What is a UCLA? (UCAV?)

The first paragraph of the Dassault nEUROn article has the sentence:

  However Dassault plan to primary use the data collected by the demonstrator to produce derived UCLAs. 

What are the UCLAs mentioned? Obviously, University of California, Los Angeles is not what was meant. 75.185.66.16 15:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Is this a true 5th generation jet fighter?

????112.205.186.79 (talk) 04:08, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

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