Talk:Washington (state)

Washington state

needs cleanup. There was already argument about this in Archive 2 where poor work by the Chicago Manual of Style caused some to support capitalized "Washington State" but as thoroughly documented there,

a. the overwhelming consensus is to follow semantic, grammatical, and Wikipedia style guidelines and

b. those guidelines are to solely capitalize proper nouns, such that Washington State University is Wa. State and Washington State [Service/Department/Whathaveyou] is Wa. State ~ but Washington the state is just Washington [the lower-case-s] state, since it's just a clarifying attributive and not any part of any formal name and

c. if anyone really cares about style guides that aren't ours the AP style guide trumps the University of Chicago's and explicitly requires lower-case s Washington state.

I'll leave it for the locals to clean up. It might be that they've all changed their minds and want to uphold the mistaken but fairly commonplace capital S. In either case, we should be consistent throughout the article rather than the current muddle of both forms. — LlywelynII 07:27, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm a local; I've lived in Washington (the state) for 51 of my 55 years. Another state with a roughly similar issue is New York, due to the ambiguity with New York City (which is fortunate to have the word "City" as part if it's official name). How is that one handled? I would like to invite readers of this section to google "new york state" (with the quotes). Though you can find instances of "New York state", the overwhelming majority of hits are "New York State".

Even here in Wikipedia, on the page for New York (the state), searching on "new york state" yields 85 hits, and the overwhelming majority of those are "New York State", not "New York state". In the "Talk" section of that page, someone asks about the issue and is told "you can use New York State in articles if you want".

So why shouldn't it be "Washington State"? Since it's "New York State" here in Wikipedia, it should be "Washington State" too.

But that doesn't mean the title of the article should be "Washington State". Due to Wikipedia standards, that should probably remain as is, "Washington (state)", just as the NY page is titled "New York (state)". —Greg Lovern (talk) 06:01, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Greglovern, "Washington State" (in capitalized form) is too easily confused with Washington State University. New York State does not have that issue, as there is not a competing and well-known entity using that exact phrasing, down to the capitalization. SounderBruce 21:28, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

SounderBruce, that's one good reason among others for the title of the article to remain "Washington (state)" as per Wikipedia policy. But within the context of a Wikipedia article about the State of Washington, Washington State University should be spelled out, or perhaps abbreviated WSU. In this article, Washington State University appears only in the short "Higher Education" section, in a list of universities, where like the others in the list it appears with its full name, "Washington State University". No reasonable person reading an article about the State of Washington would wonder whether "Washington State" referred to the university rather than the state.

In a list of article titles, it needs to be made clear that this article is about the state, because who knows what article a reader might be looking for. But once the reader is within the context of this article which is specifically about the State of Washington, there is no significant ambiguity about which Washington State we mean.

By your logic, we can't just say "Washington" within the article either, as there are a city and a former president by that name (nor can we say just "Washington" in the articles about the city or president). There are literally hundreds of instances of just "Washington" in the article. —Greg Lovern (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I think there are a lot of instances in the article where "state" is unnecessarily appended. In an article about the State of Washington, it's sufficient to just say Washington on subsequent uses. If we get rid of those unnecessary mentions, the remaining are proper nouns. Schazjmd (talk) 22:35, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@LlywelynII, Greglovern, and SounderBruce: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Names of classes argues that entities of the same class should be treated the same, so I agree the states of New York and Washington should be treated the same; I think these are the only two U.S. states typically disambiguated in this way. There's a firm consensus for "New York State", so it seems "Washington State" would be consistent. I agree "Washington" should be used when the context is clear. Am I hearing that we can make a rule that "Washington State" is to be used for the remainder as the Chicago Manual of Style advises? Or would it be better to avoid "Washington State" due to confusion with the university as the AP Stylebook warns, say "state of Washington" everywhere (which both style guides agree on), banning "Washington [Ss]tate" from English Wikipedia except to explain the terminology? I kind of like the latter because it seems like it will avoid lots of disgruntlement. -- Beland (talk) 19:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

(Note to myself to do a full project-wide search to ensure consistency with other articles like Constitution of Washington, and update Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) with the result. -- Beland (talk) 19:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC))

@Beland: wp:nc(gn)#nc doesn't really apply the way you think: You're specifically talking about two exceptions to the usual treatment of the class. Proper application would be to use "Washington" or "State of Washington" everywhere instead of "Washington State" anywhere. That fits the treatment of all US states except the 5 commonwealths and matches the state's own formal name. The title fits because it's literally just a dabbed "Washington", which is the COMMON ENGLISH name.

If the current #Etymology section is corrected to say #Name like it should (the etymology is just "after George Washington" but all the rest of the discussion of Columbia, DC, history, demonyms, etc. concern the larger topic of its name), then it should include that State of Washington is the formal name, a cite for the demonym, and a mention that DC uses the exact same demonym. It could include Washington State as an alternative form of the name with a mention that using it risks confusion with the school. Otherwise, like Schazjmd (talk · contribs) said, the rule should be that every other instance of "Washington s|State" should just be removed from the article altogether.

Lower-case "state of Washington" isn't a name; it's just bad parsing of "the state of Washington" (i.e., "Washington") and doesn't need to appear anywhere except the paragraph where it's being contrasted with DC. The State of Washington should be correctly capitalized anywhere you need to use the full formal name. — LlywelynII 20:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

OK, I've drafted guidelines at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#States following LlywelynII's advice. Let me know if any of that needs modification, or jump in and tweak as needed. I will work on eradicating "Washington [Ss]tate" if everyone is happy with that. -- Beland (talk) 23:18, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• 2007 WA Proof.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:44, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Article improvements

As of writing, I have begun efforts to drastically overhaul the article for this state. However, in doing so, and through providing an edit summary, those contributions were staunchly reverted with the contributor seemingly ignoring the complete context of the summaries (see my personal talk page for more). Now, the primary issue appears to be with the lead as they have cited the appropriate guideline; the issue begins, however, with the definition of the policy. To verify current population and economic standings, citations were added so they could not be challenged. Someone could, perhaps, slip through a faulty contribution using old statistics, or worse, malicious statistics, rewriting its popular industries, etc. Those citations were placed to combat any future challenges to current information which the appropriate guidelines have permitted. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 20:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

MOS:LEADCITE is not only policy, but generally applied across most high-quality articles on enwiki. If the content in the lead is covered in the body (as it should be), then the redundant citations in the lead do little more than cause more headaches for article maintenance. The population and area citations are usually exceptions, but only need to be cited in the infobox rather than the lead, so as not to be affected by major prose changes. SounderBruce 20:23, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

May you provide examples for such articles, and where it states they should be in the infobox as cited? Thank you. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 20:30, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Actually, MOS:LEAD is a guideline, not a policy. BilCat (talk) 20:35, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

TheLionHasSeen, if you look at Template:infobox city, you'll see that separate parameters are provided for refs for information such as area, population, etc, because those are generally expected to be sourced in the infobox. You'll also see references for that type of information in the infoboxes of articles on most major cities. (I just spot-checked New York City, London, Paris, and Chicago to be sure.) Whether area, population, etc., should also be sourced in the lead is a separate question, but they should be sourced in the infobox; it's particularly helpful for mobile readers to be able to access the ref for key information from the infobox rather than have to search for the information in the narrative text. Schazjmd (talk) 20:40, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Ah, guideline, correct. I thought it was perhaps both. And let me take a gander at those articles; oh, look, lead citations for information that is current and complex (humorous intent, non-aggression). But returning to a serious moment, let me look at the template. I will get back with you all in a few minutes. Thank you. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 20:46, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Until there is consensus to actually move around elements like the symbols infobox, you really shouldn't do it yourself. The new location is creating a serious sandwiching issue with the sports tables, on top of being far too low in the article. The lead changes should also be reverted until there is consensus on whether to include citations (which I still maintain are unnecessary and do more harm than good). SounderBruce 03:05, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

First, there appeared to be aggression with a complete disregard for understanding; then, there appeared to be a warning from you (Bruce) suggesting that you have the authority to block me along with going along with my lack of understanding of what was proposed was a guideline and not a policy (and you have seniority by personal contribution history); then, I am politely guided by others such as those participating in this conversation to resolve the dispute; and then, here we are yet again at square one; much of the information in the lead is current and deals with complexities, while also the controversies (same-sex marriage, physician-assisted suicide, etc). The recreational cannabis and other such nationwide controversies have never been cited further in the article; abortion was not even expanded upon until I opted to work and improve the article piece by piece by adding the additional mention (with more work, going in chronological order of the sections). From the article's history of contributions, it seems no one has truly bothered (Bruce in particular), until September and I perceive he has been highly-unwelcoming to the task. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 13:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

First of all, WP:AGF. I am not attempting to block you, but the message is a standard warning about edit warring that is part of standard procedure. There is no seniority or deadline that demands constant attention be given. The section expansions are welcome, but they need to conform with project guidelines and norms, particularly for a high-traffic entry like this one. Some of your edits (e.g. un-capitalizing Western/Eastern, overreliance on primary sources, improperly using Census QuickFacts for comparisons) have introduced errors that need to be fixed. SounderBruce 18:53, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 20 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Washington (state) → Washington state – Per WP:NCDAB. "Washington state" is unambiguous, commonly used, and clear - the parens don't get us anything. State of Washington would also be a reasonable choice. Gaelan 💬✏️ 19:35, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose its a specific topic not a generic class and oppose 2nd as well per WP:NATURAL as the state's name appears to be generally just "Washington" like New York (state) per sources like Britannica and censuses. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Crouch, Swale. BilCat (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:CONSISTENT, we would likely not write something like "(city name), Washington state" in an infobox, or have an article called "Washington state's congressional districts" and similar. I checked a few online encyclopedias and they use "Washington" or "Washington, State of", so this seems a little too colloquial for my tastes. Nohomersryan (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - It's just Washington. That's it. Adding "state" without a parenthesis would make it confusable with Washington State University, often shortened to Washington State by outsiders. SounderBruce 21:32, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pacific Northwest not confined to the Western United States

It’s inaccurate to describe Washington as “a state in the Pacific Northwest region of the Western United States.” The Pacific Northwest is not a subregion of the Western United States, since it also includes part of Canada.

I’ve tried to correct this a couple of ways, trying different verbiage, but the edits keep getting reverted. N. Pharris (talk) 04:32, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@NJPharris: You may not have noticed, but I changed the "Pacific Northwest" link from Pacific Northwest to Northwestern United States. You may wish to look at WP:BRD in the future, instead of reverting as you did, the next appropriate step would have been to come here and discuss. It's also usually prudent to ping people who you were reverted by so they can participate as well. See WP:PING. Courtesy ping of @BilCat:. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:28, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

The Washington article should still be changed, though; “Pacific Northwest region of the western United States” means that the PNW is a subset of the western US, and that’s inaccurate. They’re overlapping regions, not one nested within the other. N. Pharris (talk) 04:50, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Removing mention of billionaires from Economy section?

Billionaires does not an economy make, and thusly, this list of billionaires provides no context to their importance to the economy of WA state. For all us WA residents know, they're billionaires not because of their economic know-how, but that they live in a state without an income tax.

For my two cents, the mention is a bit bragging, a bit promotional, a bit human-worship.

Did not want to just go an immediately remove it as there are a massive amount of WA editors involved on this page and I'd rather be collaborative, and could also not find any consensus at Wiki about such a question.

Thoughts? TheGREYHORSE (talk) 00:34, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I haven't ever read the article all the way through, so wasn't aware of this, and upon reading it I did get the sense that it was odd and probably out of place. I used WikiBlame to see how long the content had been there and found that there was similar content dating back to 2006 with this edit [1]. The user is no longer active on the project but they did use the edit summary and simply stated "richest". I doubt the content would hold up with any critical review of the article so I went ahead and removed it. Dawnseeker2000 01:38, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 19 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. WP:SNOW WP:RMEC. Note that this was last requested here at #Requested move 20 May 2022. (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 01:39, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

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Washington (state) → Washington state – Per WP:NCDAB, natural disambiguation is preferred over parenthetical disambiguation if the natural disambig is "unambiguous, commonly used, and clear". I haven't found any move requests of a similar nature in the archives, so this is worth a shot. Bremps... 08:56, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Leaning oppose. I personally don't see it as an improvement. As such, I see the huge amount of cleanup work with moving related pages and categories as highly disruptive for no real gain. Gonnym (talk) 09:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Nothing has changed since the previous RM. The state is still called Washington. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: Changing the article title would cause a huge mess and I'm not convinced it's worth the trouble. Waqar💬 14:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Weak oppose, the WP:NATURALDAB has to be actually used (and proven to be used) as a proper name. If anything that is "State of Washington" or "Washington State". Due to multiple descriptions used, and with "Washington" being the most used name overall, best keep the disambiguator. DankJae 15:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per others. 'Washington state' sometimes refers to Washington State University. Svampesky (talk) 17:31, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as noted it doesn't appear to satisfy WP:NATURAL and the lower case title would suggest its about a generic class of state rather than a specific one though for some reason station articles use lower case nouns. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, the state's name is Washington, plain and simple. SounderBruce 18:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, Not an objective improvement and would only cause issues in the long run. Furthermore, it is consistent with New York (state) and Georgia (U.S. state), the only states that use disambiguation in the name. PersusjCP (talk) 20:13, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per above. Furthermore, if WP:NATDAB is the issue, I would much rather this be moved to State of Washington instead. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 21:20, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2024

The University of Washington athletic teams now compete in the Big Ten conference, not the Pac 12. It should be changed under the athletic teams section of this page. 50.168.156.155 (talk) 15:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done PianoDan (talk) 15:48, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2024

You need to update the population totals most states now have 2024 or at least 2023 estimates and considering Washington is a rapidly growing state still having an incredibly accurate number from 2022 is causing a misrepresentation to any reader reading this 24.21.128.123 (talk) 03:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. we have 2023 estimates in both the infobox and the population section already Cannolis (talk) 03:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)