Talk:House of Ibelin

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Crusades task force.

Israel Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.

Maria Comnenas ancestry

Really, Maria Comnena was the only really ROYAL common ancestor of Ibelins. In the first generations, there really was no other wife who would have been from clear royalty. All others were noblewomen of more or less mediocre ancestry. And, later wives were then not COMMON ancestors of all Ibelins, but ancestors of only a few members of the big family. Already because of this fact, I will not bother to mention them. Besides, are there any highly royal anyway?

Speaking of Maria Comnena's ancestry, she (according to genealogical and historical research) really had extraordinary some ancestors: from old Bagratides, through clear descent, and not such guessed as with some other branches. Therefore, I do not like that someone is trying to suppress that info. "related" is not enough - as she was clearly descended. Carried the blood.

Georgia is true.

Armenia is wrongly understood by editor X. It was the proper Armenia, ancestors even from Hellenistic era. Please do not confuse with that semi-crusading principality in Cilicia. It is not the same.

Bulgaria: any good genealogist knows that Comnenos family had an ancestress who descended from certain Bulgarian tsars of 10th century.

The Bagrations of Armenia proper, Maria's ancestors, according to contemporary Armenian sources really were descended from Persian and Parthian monarchs of Hellenistic & late Roman era (including Seleucides and Achaimenides). I suggest you to check relevant books, such as Charles Settipani, Nos ancetres de l'Antiquité, 1991. 62.78.126.61 18:26, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to put this on the page about the Comneni, rather than the Ibelins? The fact that Maria is descended from the Bulgarian tsars, etc. is almost completely irrelevant to an article about the Ibelins (although the fact that she was Byzantine royalty is relevant). Choess 18:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I believe it was a most important thing to poor Ibelins, as they did not have any other royal blood, coming from mediocre knights of obscure origin. Middle Ages, the highest descent was extremely important for nobility. They were social climbers. And they, living in Cyprus (earlier Palestine) were close to earlier realms of Seleucides, Persia, Achaimenides, Arsacides, and Armenia. Geographically even closer than Comneni in constantinople. 62.78.105.154 21:10, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, Armenia was closer, but the Bagratid monarchy had collapsed for some time. Bulgaria and Georgia, I daresay, were further from the traditional Ibelin seats of power. (And I'm a bit skeptical about Bagratid claims of descent; the Rupenides traditionally claimed Bagratid descent, too, but Ruedt-Collenberg, who thoroughly studied Armenian genealogy, felt the original ancestor had been a retainer of King Gagik, which was inflated into a blood relationship later on.) And remember that the Byzantine Emperor made most of the leaders of the First Crusade swear fealty too him, continued to take military action in the Crusader States through the fall of Edessa, periodically reassert suzerainity over Cilician Armenia, and so forth. Her Byzantine ties would have mattered to the d'Ibelin, not any descent from vanished Eastern states (which would have been shared with her kin, the Byzantine Emperors, anyway). Choess 22:51, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Latter Ibelins

Any idea what became of the family after the settled in Cyprus? Are there any people now living who can claim them as ancestors? Fergananim

Well, as 62.78 added, "practically all Catholic royalty in recent centuries" have an Ibelin in their family somewhere. Adam Bishop 04:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There was a longtime branch of Lusignans in the island, but they (or documentation of further generations) vanished around the Turkish era. Similar things probably happened to other noble families, such as Ibelins. 217.140.193.123 22:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The royalty is descended from one nexus, I believe. Anne of Lusignan, duchess consort of Savoy. Other descents are hazy or unknown or non-existent.

When I polished the tree above, I actually took some care to point out through which links European royalty today descends from Ibelins.

Not a bad achievement, the founder of the family was apparently quite a simple knight who received some personal success due to capability loyalty etc. Within two generations, there was royalty descending from him. Unusually rapid elevation.

She was ancestress of enough people, so rather soon (within a coule of centuries) all Catholic royalty descended from her. Such things happen: with a stochastic certainty someone is ancestor of everyone or of no one. Cf Most Recent Common Ancestor. In a smaller subgroup, such as Catholic Royalty, it happens relatively very soon. If you are interested in names, well that's actually trivia as we can mention almost anyone within the basic criteria, but how about:

the current Prime Minister of Bulgaria. Certainly descends from Ibelins. Whereas I am not at all sure of Prime Ministers of Cyprus and Israel.
Elizabeth II
Juan Carlos I 217.140.193.123 22:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Family tree

I think the family tree is screwed up (probably by me). Some people are in the wrong generation? It would probably also help to add dates. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I think I fixed it now. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Focus?

The scope of this article is a bit unclear: the lead sentence says that Ibelin “was a castle in the Crusader kingdom of Jerusalem”, while the hatnote states, (and the content reflects) that the article is “about a former crusader family”.
It needs to be one or the other, so I have re-written the introduction (the co-ordinates are wrong, anyway), and the first section, to resolve the matter.
We could do with an article on the castle anyway, so I've taken that stuff out, and focused this on the noble house. I trust everyone is OK with that. Moonraker12 (talk) 18:52, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Move

Following the slight re-write (above), I've also moved the page from Ibelin to House of Ibelin; it fits the content better, and "Ibelin" should be a disambiguation page now. I trust everyone is OK with this, too. Moonraker12 (talk) 19:33, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Family tree, again

There's a lot of work gone into this, but it is a little confusing as it stands (IMHO). Though I'm not sure what would be the remedy.
It might be better with the vertical lines marking the generations; there are examples at Koechlin family and at Baldwin family (the second would be easier to install). Or listing the children of each marriage against the couple's name, to make them easier to find. Or standardizing the family names (eg. Hugh I is also Hugh of Lusignan, Isabella of Antioch is also Isabella of Lusignan) it might make it clearer which family they belong to. The main problem, I think, is that there are so many of them: Maybe it would be worth breaking it up into “Family trees”: “Descendants of Barisan”, “...of Baldwin”, “..of Balian” for example.
If there are no objections I will have a go at this in a short while. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:12, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've finally gotten round to doing something about this (As short whiles go, this is pretty bad!) There may be a better remedy, but hopefully this will do for now. Moonraker12 (talk) 22:38, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]