Talk:Boffin

Listed for deletion in 2004

Article Boffins listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion Apr 26 to May 3 2004, consensus was to delete. Discussion:

• Dicdef of slang. -- Ben Brockert 22:43, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)
• List for cleanup, but am inclined to keep. With its WWII origins, and its obscurity to many in the USA, it's a word that a good article could be written about, and what's there is a start. Smerdis of Tlön 00:33, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • I have expanded the entry. Probably ought to be moved to boffin in any case. Smerdis of Tlön 14:15, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Fine in its present state. I've read enough Nevil Shute and Len Deighton and so forth novels, set in Britain during WWII, and think that it's an adequate pop-culture-type article that could grow nicely. Haven't I also seen references to the "Wizards' War?" Dambusters and FIDO and H₂S and Chain Home and Bletchley Park and Frank Whittle and midnight flights to bring the cavity magnetron to the U. S. and all that? Pip pip! Jolly good, eh what? Dpbsmith 15:23, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep: interesting, informative. Wile E. Heresiarch 20:07, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Looks reasonable. Keep. DS 12:15, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, but should be moved to boffin, as per Wikipedia style ("prefer singular nouns"). Can probably co-exist with the hobbit reference for now, and if either gets too big, it can be a disambig page. - IMSoP 13:38, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

End discussion

Um, don't you mean consensus was to keep but move to singular noun? Also, do we really need Boffin (disambiguation) rather than a link straight through to Boffin (hobbit family)? I'm rather inclined to give the user one less link to follow myself. - IMSoP 16:00, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

See Also

Why does this article link to BAF? --AdamBackstrom (talk) 15:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Er. . . uh. . . because it can? Smerdis of Tlön 15:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. --AdamBackstrom (talk) 21:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

teacher's pets

'or repellent teacher's pets at school - lapping up their school work.'

I disagree with this as a universal statement but I think it suits Nida Jafri.She is a goody two shoes! I attended schools outside London, UK during the 70s and 80s and the phrase did not carry the pejorative nature of the word swot. The phrase described a pupil known to be especially knowledgeable, particularly the sort of pupil who was likely to enjoy attending an after school computer or electronics club. There were boffins who were cool as well as boffins who were disliked. The term of derision for a pupil who worked hard was swot.

Mostly boffin was only applied to boys, unlike the term swot which was used to insult both boys and girls in equal measure.

category notible boffins should be deleted... clearly irrelevant information and most probably an ammature attempt at high school styled humour

Paul HH 18:12, April 1, 2005 (GMT)

The mystique of the boffin

It is difficult to follow what this part of the article is saying. It seems to suggest that the word 'boffin' became less a compliment and more of a joke during the 1950s/1970s, because Britain's scientists were less capable than their American counterparts.

This does not seem to me to be true, and there is no justification given for this statement at all. In fact, Britain was matching the US during the 1950s, and while it was economically overtaken during the 1960s, projects like Concorde showed that British 'boffins' could still deliver. However, more importantly, I can see no proof whatsoever that the word has lost its meaning of expertise and become primarily funny.

While the word boffin is often used in a jocular context - the eccentric aspect being of relevence here - this is certainly not the primary meaning of the term in Britain. If it were, the term would not be used commercially to indicate expertise. Yet a simple google shows many British companies using the term in a positive and non-humourous context - http://www.offshoreboffin.com/ and http://www.boffin.com/ are two examples. Compare these with Google hits for American companies using the word 'nerd'. Most other UK google hits show that the word is almost a direct one-to-one synonym with 'scientist' or 'engineer'. Eccentric scientists exist, of course, and are a Hollywood stock-in-trade, but this one-sided portrayal does not show that the boffin is always mad - one might equally claim that the film 'The Nutty Professor' shows that American 'professors' are denigrated because of perceived failings with the Space Shuttle!

Typical examples of current British 'boffins' include Colin Pillinger, lead scientist on the Mars Beagle project, and Ron Ayers, aerodynamics engineer for the current supersonic land speed record holder, Thrust SSC.

This whole section seems to be a typical example of US-centerism, based on TV portrayals. My understanding of the word is that it does carry the 'other-worldly' eccentricity image which the word 'professor' often carries - it can be denigrated by anti-intellectuals in the same way as the word 'professor' can be, but there is no implication that a 'boffin' is a joke because Britain's scientists are a joke. Americans may meet the word only through film/tv (where all the examples seem to come from), and so may have a distorted view? 86.10.119.90 (talk) 17:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Cyclops image

Given the conceptual distance between "boffin" and "mad scientist," the image is really a poor fit. Given the lead, Alec Guiness in The Man in the White Suit would be ideal. Failing that, Michael Rennie as Barnes Wallis in The Dambusters or James Stewart as Theodore Honey in No Highway would work. I'm not well-versed in the fair-use issues associated with adding images, but will try to get up to speed and see what I can do about it.

ABVR 04:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Belatedly, agreed. Boffins are definitely not evil, as Dr Cyclops is. I've removed the image. If we're thinking fictional, Professor Branestawm is a good example[1], as is Q in the James Bond films. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 10:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Another good example of the archetypal boffin would be David Farrar's character in The Small Back Room

As for the changing of the image of the 'boffin' I would guess that has a lot to do with the people who are now working in the various UK media (TV, Radio, Newspapers, etc.), most of whom are of a completely non-technical bent, and whom if they have Degrees, are usually in the 'Mickey Mouse' ones, such as 'Media Studies' etc. So very few of the people writing and talking about scientific areas have any knowledge themselves, so the whole 'dumbing down' of the media is self-propagating. As an example of this one only has to look at what was done to the formerly excellent BBC TV series Horizon, which used to cater to the reasonably well-educated general viewer, but which when I last saw it back in the late 1990s/early 2000s was by then apparently aimed at the a target viewer who, presumably fascinated by all the flashy lights and CGI special effects, sat there in front of the screen with their tongue slightly protruding.

Another reason perhaps is the almost complete decline of British manufacturing industry, so for anyone interested in technical things there is almost no point in learning about these subjects, (apart from the fun in acquiring knowledge in itself), as there is now nowhere to get work in the chosen area of interest. Hence the Brain drain that has been going on for decades. And so the 'boffin' becomes a figure-of-fun to the less well educated people who are nowadays in charge of things. How to turn a First World Country into a Second or Third World One.

You see, being scientifically educated in the old sense of a term like 'Boffin' is no longer fashionable in the UK, Ignorance is King, and will remain-so, as a proper all-rounded education makes the politicians and 'Meja Luvvies' feel uncomfortable. To them it is like a foreign language. Remember how when you were in school and the thick, ignorant pupils always made fun of the ones who tried to learn - well those are the sort of people now running things - the ones who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

.... lowers flag to sound of "Land of Hope and Glory" while sun sinks slowly in the west. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.66.73 (talk) 20:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Massive vandalism.

There appears to have been some massive amounts of vandalism, because the article currently only consists of 'Scott.' For some reason, I keep get an error when trying to revert. Any other edits care to fix this? Preferably ASAP. 66.191.19.68 (talk) 20:56, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Successfully reverted to last (presumably) good version. Griswald (talk) 22:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for handling it. 66.191.19.68 (talk) 23:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Boffin Definition and Etymology

UK

I have made many changes to etymology. Would any actual boffins care to review? I've ended up moving much of the material to 'usage'. My edits have been informed by the following 'appreciation', for whjich I do not (yet) have full references and which may need a separate article:

Before coming to power Churchill had consorted with scientists and mathematicians (e.g Einstein) and had advocated 'the appliance of science' to warfare. On coming to power he saw Britain's position as hopeless unless it could develop new science, notably in decision-making (including cryptography, planning, analysis), radiomagnetic devices and atomic physics. 'Boffin' seems to refer to 10cm pulsed radar, with the work conducted collaboratively with TRE in the lead. The word may have been first used in connection with anti-submarine trials rather disparagingly, but was rapidly adopted with more positive connotations. (Demo against small ships by TRE Autumn 1940.ADM 220/78, CSS to DSD (personal) 29 March 1941, re E.A. Landale of Signal School "Landale and his party have done a wonderful job in taking over from the Research Department (TRE) in Decmber, engineering and improving the technical performance of the equipment, and getting it to sea and working by mid-March." Quoted in H.D. Howse, Radar at Sea, The Royal Navy in World War 2 (Macmillan, 1993).)

Usage seems to have shifted post about 1973, and I have yet to make complete sense of the public sources.

I have these detailed Queries:

1. Added reference to Sarah Biffen/Biffin and copied some of the material below to the main page. I wonder if some have confused 'artistic' and 'autistic'?.
2. When Watson-Watt disparaged 'Colonel Boffin' was he aware of the Army's positive usage? Or was it an unfortunate coincidence?
3. Were there early children's books featuring boffins or Colonel Boffin'?
4. When did the US adopt the word, and what did they mean by it? (After Turing's visit, perhaps?)
5. When did Farnborough adopt the term? Was Whittle referred to as a boffin? Barnes-Wallis? ...
6. When did Turing and others at Bletchley begin to be called 'boffins'? Was it because of their association with Malvern's computer boffins, or codebreaking?

Also, according to https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/how-invention-scotch-tape-led-revolution-how-companies-managed-employees-180972437/ " Through Drew, McKnight came to understand that letting researchers experiment freely could lead to innovation. He developed a policy known as the 15 percent rule, which allows engineers to spend 15 percent of their work hours on passion projects.

“Encourage experimental doodling,” McKnight said. “If you put fences around people, you get sheep. Give people the room they need.”

The 15 percent rule has deeply influenced Silicon Valley culture—Google and Hewlett Packard are among the companies that give their employees free time to experiment. The Scotch tape story is now a classic business school lesson, a parable of the value of instinct and serendipity, which Drew once called, "the gift of finding something valuable in something not even sought out."

My question: was this ever formalised in British practice (e.g., at Malvern), when did it die out, and how did it affect the Boffin's rise and demise?

--Djmarsay (talk) 17:29, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

I always thought that this TV programme had it right - see from approx 35:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2c7LoZMAjk I like the tea shop explanation. Boffin (talk) 20:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

US

As a retired U.S. boffin, I would argue that the accuracy of the definition and the etymology of “Boffin” in Wikipedia could be improved greatly. My source for the following is Sir Robert Watson-Watt, writing “The Natural History of the Boffin” in the American journal, “Proceedings of the Institute of Radar Engineers”, 1953, page 1699. Wikipedia mentions Sir Robert under the “Usage during and after WWII” heading as leader of the “team that worked on radar at Bawdsey Research Station”. He is perhaps WWII’s most reknowned boffin, and many consider him to be the father of radar: Definition: “The Boffin is a researcher, of high scientific competence, who has learned that a device of great technical elegance, capable of a remarkable performance in the hands of a picked crew, is not necessarily a good weapon of war. The proud title of Boffin was first conferred on a few radar scientists by Royal Air Force officers with whom they worked in close cooperation. It is a term of respect, and admiration, but particularly a term of affection—an affection which is expressed, as is the English way, in a slightly outside-in, jocular way so that the affection and admiration may not be regarded as too demonstrative.” Etymology: “I am not quite sure about the true origins of this name of Boffin. It certainly has something to do with an obsolete type of aircraft called the Baffin, something to do with that odd bird, the Puffin; I am sure it has nothing at all to do with that first literary “Back Room Boy,” the claustrophiliac Colonel Boffin, who as you remember never overtly emerged from his back room, although his voice was clearly audible from it. It is the very essence of the Boffin that he, should emerge frequently and almost aggressively from the Back Room to which, however, he must return on his missions of interpretation and inspiration.” I’m unfamiliar with Wikipedia editing and concede that these quotations are long, but the present Wikipedia treatment does not accurately reflect the origin and context of Boffin. For anyone interested in the full text of Sir Robert’s journal article in MS Word, 1360 words, 32kB; please request it on my talk page. Two books, not listed in Wikipedia “Further Reading”, describe boffin work and achievements during WWII: Instruments of Darkness: The Struggle for Radar Supremacy by Alfred Price – 1967 The Wizard War: British Scientific Intelligence, 1939-1945 by R. V. Jones - 1978 Ancmar (talk) 03:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Bawdsey Manor was the initial base for the Telecommunications Research Establishment (TRE) that worked on Radar, although it later moved to Malvern due to fear or enemy attacks. If any scientists truly deserved the title 'Boffins' it was certainly these. For the RAF a 'Boffin' was one of the 'types' that installed all the mysterious experimental electronic Black boxes inside the aircraft and occasionally flew with the crews on operations to test the devices, device such as Gee, Oboe, and H2s. Another archetypal 'Boffin' would have been Alan Blumlein who later lost his life in a crash whilst flight testing H2S.

BTW, most 'boffins' were civilians, so they weren't expected to have the usual formal knowledge of military protocol, which meant they had to be treated with respect by aircrew, etc, and not ordered about. This made them stand out at RAF stations and similar, even though they might be (temporarily) in uniform. On some (rare) occasions, they might need to fly over enemy territory, and so they had to be in uniform in case they were shot down, otherwise they might be shot as 'spies' if captured. Another example of the 'boffin' type would be those based at RAF stations engaged in Operations research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.63.180 (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

'Boffin' used in a 1945 article in Flight here: [2] ...and another by the same author here: [3]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 15:49, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

The above two links appear broken. What do they refer to?--Djmarsay (talk) 15:20, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, it would be good to know when 'boffin' came into US usage, and whether it had the same emphasis as I have given it, and if it came to mean 'any technical person working in defense', as distinct from the 'rare birds'.Djmarsay (talk) 10:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Usage

When did the term get applied to mathematicians and Comp. Scientists, such as Turing? (I know it did, but why and when?)--Djmarsay (talk) 15:22, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Dubious

• Boffin continued, in this immediate postwar period, to carry its wartime connotations: a modern-day wizard who laboured in secret to create incomprehensible devices of great power. Over time, however, as Britain's high-technology enterprises became less dominant, the mystique of the boffin gradually faded.

• By the 1980s Boffins were relegated, in UK popular culture, to semi-comic supporting characters such as Q, the fussy armourer-inventor in the James Bond films. The term itself gradually took on a slightly negative connotation, similar to the American slang geek or nerd.

It seems to me that these two bullet points are presenting a point of view and they are not backed up with citations. I have just finished reading an obituary

• Clarke, Gavin (13 October 2011). "Dennis Ritchie: The C man who booted Unix". The Register.

In the Obituary is the line "For Dennis Ritchie, 1968 was the first year of a 44-year career spent among the boffins of Bell Labs where he helped usher in the modern computing age." Given the origins of the word as "A band of scientific men who performed their wartime wonders at Malvern and apparently called themselves 'the boffins'." is there higher praise? and as a quite unassuming back rooms man, it not an appropriate epitaph, when comparing him with Steve Jobs the consummate front office man, who death a few days before over overshadowed his?

I think that the two bullet points need to be sourced and rewritten to allow both, comic parody and acknowledge that the original usage is still in vogue. -- PBS (talk) 10:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

The Register goes out of its way to use "boffin" in its writing; comic effect? "reclaiming" the word? GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe but the statements in the Wikipedia article are currently unsourced and as such WP:SYN, and a Google search of the London heavies (Gardian, Independent, Telegraph and Times) shows that they all still use the term with its dictionary definition. That the term can also be used disparagingly is part of the traditional problem of the divide in the UK over Arts and Science, where it considered quite acceptable in high society (and in the entertainment media) to be ignorant of science, but not of the fine arts. -- PBS (talk) 04:31, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps this will help the OED gives three definitions.

1. "An ‘elderly’ naval officer." (2 quoted cites one from 41 and another from 42) -- Not a usage I have ever heard.
2. A person engaged in ‘back-room’ scientific or technical research (7 quoted citations from 45 to 58) -- which is typical range of cites for such a word
3. Brit. colloq. "In weakened use: an intellectual, an academic, a clever person; an expert in a particular field; esp. such a person perceived as lacking practical or social skills" (5 quoted cites from 54 to 93)

-- PBS (talk) 04:58, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

A Google book search turns up several cites for the latter bullet. Probably most illustrative is:

• Institution of Chemical Engineers (1997), The chemical engineer, Great Britain, p. 11{{citation}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

-- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 19:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Recent use of the word

Whether or not this might be of any use to the article, it seems worth bringing up. "Boffin" seems to have acquired a use, at least in the mainstream British press in the last few years, as a term for any kind of scientist, researcher, or academic - wartime or not. The Register, Daily Times and The Star being perhaps the most prominent examples of this. The original Oxford Dictionary definition seemed to imply it was mostly used to refer to wartime scientists or scientists otherwise working on projects related to the war effort. It just drives me nuts how they seem to throw around this term to refer to ANY academic working on ANY project in ANY country, when words like scientist (or physicist, astronomer, geologist, etc) are not only more descriptive and understandable for most people, they are also more accurate! Today the Register had one about NASA "boffins" developing new technological ideas for exploring Titan. It just seems to imply that ALL of science is some kind of "war effort"... which seems to say something about society. Anyway, I know this isn't a forum or soapbox, but I think it is interesting that in the coming years we will probably see the term be used much more broadly than was true historically. Alt lys er svunnet hen (talk) 21:07, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

The Register has a particular writing style. (one of the reasons I like it) and uses the word for humour alongside the copious double entendres in the sub headlines. It's yet to be 'mainstream'. Other British press are likely to be using "boffin" in a slightly jocular way rather than with any particular comment on society. GraemeLeggett (talk) 07:21, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

The English TV drama "Danger UXB", set in England during WWII, in Episode 3, uses the term "Boffins" to refer to the scientists who take raw information about and experience with German bombs from Unexploded Bomb teams and analyze it to produce new tools and instructions for defuzing (defusing) such bombs. David Spector (talk) 23:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Possible original research

This article should describe the history and use of the word "boffin", but instead it spends considerable time rambling about people associated with the word and war-time scientists in general, cited to primary sources. If there is a group of people who are recognized as a reliably identified unit that could be called "The Boffins", they should have an article separate from the word itself. StereoFolic (talk) 04:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

This seems a reasonable view, but do you have a reference to WP policy?

I note that Dinosaur - Wikipedia for example is mostly about dinosaurs but has a section on 'cultural depiction'. Similarly 'computer' has a section on etymology. So it seems all the existing content could be included in a re-write following one of those precedents. But is it really necessary, and why?

It might also be helpful to clarify which you think are 'primary sources', again referring to the appropriate WP policy.

Finally, your remark about 'rambling'. I think the article would be much improved by the use of the 'refn' tag, and I might do this. But I'd like to clarify the other points first. Djmarsay (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts; I believe a relevant WP policy is WP:WORDISSUBJECT. I believe the word "Boffin" may rise to the level of notability to qualify as an encyclopedia subject of its own, but we must be careful that sources we use are describing the word itself. I believe many of the claims in this article about the word are backed by sources which simply *use* the word, while not discussing the word itself. Much of the discussion of the history of the word's use appears to depend on sources which *use* the word, from which the article infers an etymological and usage history. This is why I consider this original research.

To illustrate in more detail, consider the claims in one of the paragraphs specifically under dispute:

• "This negative view changed after 2003, with Backroom Boys: The Secret Return of the British Boffin, but without making the original distinction between 'back-room boys' and boffins." - this claim is cited simply to the entire book; without a specific page number or quote to refer to, I can only verify based on a very quick skim of the book that it appears to be a history of British scientists, not an etymology.
• "By 2009 a popular history noted how enthusiastic 'home-taught boffins' and academics contributed to both world wars, and came to have 'key positions in directing the war effort'" - the source here includes page numbers that *use* the word, but again do not discuss the word itself

I could not verify the other sources in this paragraph online, but based on their descriptions it seems none are actual etymologies or word histories. If I misunderstand, please let me know. Thanks. StereoFolic (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, and my apologies for not responding sooner, but I have been somewhat distracted by other matters.

The original posting referred to 'boffin' as slang and I have not changed that, but reviewing the WP guidance it now seems to me that this is confusing. The term, like most, was originally a specialist term that came to be used informally, but it was NOT a 'slang' alternative for a pre-existing word or phrase and later came to be used by official histories etc.

I suggest replacing "This article is about the British slang word for a scientist. " by something like "A boffin is a scientist, engineer, or other person engaged in technical or scientific research and development who is recognized as making an innovative contribution to significant capability, for example British or Allied defence and security" and dealing with etymology and other usages in Wiktionary.

I'd be happy to do this in my own time, if it would help. But as of last week Malvern has a museum dedicated to 'boffins', so I'd want to engage more with them. But would an edit along the above lines be in line with Wikipedia aims?. Djmarsay (talk) 17:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)